Dog Psychology Made Simple-with Ridge Vogul- Dog Behavior Expert

In this episode of The Creating Victory podcast, host Amy J. gets the insights on what’s really best for you and your dog.  Ridge Vogul, Founder of Pack Leader University, is one of the world’s leading experts on dog psychology. Yes, you heard it right, dog psychology.

 Ridge breaks down the many myths around dog training, and how to rectify the most challenging situations, from aggression, to anxiety, to barking and pulling. Ridge founded Pack Leader University to be a community of people who are ready to do the inner work for themselves and their dogs. 

https://www.instagram.com/packleaderuniversity/

https://packleaderuniversity.com

Transcript

Meet A Dog Psychology Expert

SPEAKER_00 0:00

In this episode of the Creating Victory podcast, host Amy J gets the insights on what's really best for you and your dog. Ridge Vogel, founder of PAC University, is one of the world's leading experts on dog psychology. Yes, you heard it right, dog psychology. Ridge breaks down the many myths around dog training and how to rectify the most challenging situations from aggression to anxiety to barking and polling. Ridge founded Pac Leader University to be a community of people who are ready to do the inner work for themselves and their dogs.

Ridge’s Path Into Dog Psychology

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Hello my friends, Amy J here, back with the Creating Victory podcast. And I am always super excited about the people I get to chat with here. And this week is no exception. I want this guy's job. Not to take his job, to also have his job. I want to thank you guys for listening, sharing, downloading, supporting, spreading and creating victory in your lives. And let's all just get along, shall we? Can we just do that? So I want to dive right in, just beside myself to have Ridge Vogel here today, the founder of Pack Leader University. He is a dog behavior expert. And we all know we love dogs. I love dogs. Everyone, I stop and talk to every dog in the street. And I just want to bring them all home with me. And this is Michael, but you specifically realize that there was a gap between like typical training and actual dog psychology. And you fill that gap. And I love in your intro video, you talk about respecting the animal, you know, communicating with the animal, having this understanding and relationship so that everybody can be happier, the dog is less stressed. And I you guys need to follow him because it's it's also human psychology. You're kind of like my new shrink, thank you, through Instagram. So, ladies and gentlemen, we're excited to have Ridge here. We've made it happen. Thank you so much. And share with us a little bit about who you are and how you got here.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Yeah. I mean, I'm super grateful to be here. I love connecting with other dog people and just sharing, you know, sharing kind of the message behind what I do. You know, how I got here is, you know, I was one of the like typical well-meaning but not well-doing dog owners my whole life. You know, love dogs from when I was a kid and just always knew something, there was this gap. You know, I always felt like something wasn't right. And anytime I we tried to explore training, but we never had bad dogs, you know, bad dogs or whatever, challenge dogs. But I just had always had this inner knowing that things could be better. And I didn't have the connection that I really wanted with dogs. And anytime I tried to explore the training avenue, it felt even more off. It felt even more misaligned. I discovered dog psychology. I stumbled upon Caesar's Way, that book in Goodwill, and decided to adopt a dog and made this commitment to myself and the dog that I was gonna do it right, even though I didn't know what do it right meant. But I knew I won't hadn't been. I knew the feeling wasn't right yet. That's really what kicked off my journey. And you know, I in 2014 I started working, I've worked with dogs exclusively since 2014, you know, and basically every level, every opportunity, like Kenneltech, you know, rescue, dog walker, dog daycare, groomer, everything. I've done everything. So, but it was really the learning about dog psychology, and then I got to very quickly see it implemented on a macro level, like in a daycare, where it was a daycare run on dog psychology principles. So, like you walked in and it was a hundred dogs, and they were it was silent in there. Wow, and it was like what Twilight Zone? It was like, what's happening here? You know, like it was me, it was just like this is it, you know, and that's just what triggered really triggered things. That was back in 2014, and I like I said, I've just kind of stayed on the path. I really stayed on the path, and then things really, really kicked off for me and evolved into Pack Leader University. And around COVID, I started doing workshops, so I started mentoring hard with like going to workshops and mentoring and all that stuff. And so I know this is what I meant to do.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

It's super inspiring, and also I feel like it's also the human psychology aspect. And I know I watch these videos, and it's things like often we think, oh, this is hurting the dog or upsetting the dog like a muzzle or making them wait or not letting them jump or not allowing, but it's kind of like kids, you know, you don't set boundaries with them, they're just gonna roll over you.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

You know, I don't really know much about dog psychology, but I see you working with them. So when people come to you, like typical things that we see too much barking, or I see a lot of pulling. We'll talk about New York City in a minute, or you know, now everyone's on their phone and that bothers me. I'm like, pay attention to your poor dog is just you know, just or barking at the neighbors. I have a I know someone who has a large breed, and we'll talk about the breeds also, that has a tendency to get aggressive with people that she doesn't know. And so, you know, how do you help people transform these situations?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

It's so simple. This is what people don't realize, and this is like my like biggest message is it's so simple. So everything that you just ran through in my brain, I'm like, I can already picture and understand what's happening and the why. So like you're like the you know, people on the phone just fundamentally disconnected, right? Like, not only are the vast majority of people totally unaware that like this is a different species, we don't consciously think like different species, different needs, like we anthropomorphize them, we act we treat them like they're humans, we assume they want everything we do, and if that's like the root of or they assume they want everything that we want, right? And that's like the root of all the underlying disconnection, and then you know, people are on top of that, we're humans and you know, on the phone. But like what the things you ran through, like the pulling on the walks. I mean, these are dogs, most of those dogs are very nervous. It's a leader follower society, right? Somebody's always leading and someone's following. And when the dog is pulling, a lot of them are scared, number one. But like most of them are they're leading because the human is not. Everything the human is doing is sending them a message that like that person is not in charge, right? Right. And because it's a someone's gotta be in the lead in their mind, they're like, okay, well, if they're not in charge, I have to be in charge, yeah. And then I gotta go do it. And most of them are most of them are not, they're different pack positions, but most dogs are not leaders. And when you when we get barking and leash reactivity and the quote unquote aggression when she sees somebody, that's a dog that is in fear, that is stressed out, and that doesn't feel protected. So they're taking everything into their own hands and doing the best that they can, trying to control this and control that, and because the human is behind them, just following along. So the root, the solution to all of this is like is understanding the why is this happening, and then making a conscious decision that like I am gonna lead. Okay, now what's that gonna take? And what's that gonna look like? And so when the human starts to lead, the barking dog, the stress, you know, all that stuff just it goes away.

SPEAKER_04 8:35

I love when I watch you because and you addressed this in the videos of this is actually good for the dog to stop it. Or I mean, I've learned things just because I have to talk to every dog, but I don't let them jump on me anymore. I just wait, or stepping in with your I've learned so much from you, so then I don't even have a dog. Someday I'll have a dog. But you know, using your body and not talking to them like they're a human, not leaving food out, making, you know, not watching them while they're eating, all of these are these just things you learned along the way? Is there a like a dog psychology, like human psychology? And I think it's a lot to do with setting boundaries. You know, if you don't set boundaries with people, you're not gonna set boundaries with your dog.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Boundary setting is critical. Like whoever, I mean, in nature, in like animals, like whatever collection of animals it is, like a pack in the wild or something, there are clear rules and boundaries and clarity in the pack of the order. Like everybody knows what's appropriate and what's not appropriate. And what happens with dogs is first of all, people don't understand what will create a happy, fulfilled, successful dog, right? Like it's kind of and we don't draw the parallels of like like chill, like humans are animals too, and they're definitely different types of parenting now, but in general, we people should have a general idea of like what would raise a successful kid rules, respect, boundaries, love, clarity, connection, fulfillment, all of those things, but not a free-for-all, right? You know, not a free-for-wheel bedtime and no rules, and you eat whatever you want. Like, but that's kind of what we do with dogs coming from a good place, wanting to be the candyman and the nice guy. But what you actually represent to them is confusion, and you represent confusion. Wow. And for most dogs that are not confident, which most dogs are not confident, what we create is a situation where, like, oh my god, now I'm in they're in your home, but they're in your home, and they look at this like I gotta be in charge because this person is not in charge, and that is the root of behavioral issues right there. Wow. Yeah, it's amazing. Simple, it's simple. One of my big messages is like when you understand dogs on a deep level and you learn how to lead, you don't need a trainer, you shouldn't need a trainer. But like, we good, and I'm not a parent, but like that's our own species. Like, there's an instinctual aspect of like raising, you know, a good kid. Like, this is you actually have to learn about them as a species first, and then adopt that role of like make the conscious choice, I'm gonna be a good parent, but I'm but a good parent to my dog, and you have to make it more about like, I want to lead you rather than like you're here to make me feel good, and I'm here to be your buddy. That's not it.

City Dogs Need Leadership More

SPEAKER_04 11:49

I want you to be wagging your tail all the time, which I from what I understand isn't necessarily good either, but it's it's it's adrenaline and excitement and confusion, which is usually stress. I've learned so much from you already. And you know, we were talking a little bit earlier about having dogs in New York City and other more urban areas, and how to manage that because it, you know, we were saying before we got on here, it's just not a natural environment. And you had said earlier, you know, they're not they're their own species, so they're not people, and how to support them the best way that you can and do what's best for the animal as opposed to what we want. How do you support people that live in a place like New York City, or you said you were talking to Chicago today? Yeah, and all the time on the street. It's like oof.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Stressed dogs, yeah. I mean, it's like the good news is like, and fundamentally everywhere you go, like dogs need the same thing, they need the same fundamental things, which are this. I believe in this formula, this happens to be one of Caesar's formulas of exercise. They were created to balance dog is exercise first, so physical fulfillment of the body, not a spin around the block, like like birds fly, fish swim, dogs walk. Dogs are migratory species, but we're not even they might go out once or twice a day, right? So, like the formula for a balanced dog, exercise first, physical fulfillment, discipline, which means just rules, clarity, bound, you know, boundaries, life making sense, and then affection, and in that order. So think about what we humans do, and I was a thousand percent guilty of it. Affection, maybe no rules, very little exercise. Yeah, and then we wonder why we have crazy dogs. So, your question was how do you support people in the city? I support people by helping them understand that like these are the fundamental needs of dogs that they anywhere you go, and in a city, it's almost like your sword has to be a little sharper, you know, like, and you have you just have to be even more aware that like like this environment is the opposite of instinctual to a dog, it does not make sense, so even more so they need the same things the exercise first, the rules, the clarity, the leadership, and then the affection. But above all else, they just really need to be understood and led. And then you need to be aware that like when the environment changes, like the dog is going to feel differently, right? So, so just having like the but all dogs fundamental fundamentally need two things protection to feel safe, somebody's got me, and direction. What are we doing? Where are we going? That's all they care about. Yeah, everyone thinks like I gotta buy a bunch of stuff and be excitement, and it's like, no, your dog just wants to feel safe and know what the hell's going on, yeah. You know, like that's all they care about. So, like it how you help people in cities is just fundamentally understand your dog, know things are gonna be a little bit harder for them in that environment, and do what you can.

Pack Leader University Explained

SPEAKER_04 15:19

Yeah, it's it's amazing. And so tell us a little bit about Pack Leader University. You work in person, you work online, I know you go talk. What's the program? How's the response been? I know quite a few people. I want to just poll to you, but you know, you could only take a horse to water, so attraction, not promotion, yeah, yeah. So maybe this will inspire them.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah, well, people have to feel called, they have to want it themselves, yeah. You know, so I mean, so pack leader university, like I'm really proud of it. It evolved, it really evolved out of it. I never set out to have a business, like this evolved out of like me just being like, I gotta do this and I love this, and I kept doing it and doing it. And then I went through a program to create a virtual program. So, what the program is, and it's a university, so it's I'm going to start adding different, I don't know, like different yeah, odd adding to the curriculum. But right now, my primary course it's called Pack Leader Blueprint, and I describe it as like dog psychology kindergarten to college. So, like you figuratively add before you multiply before you do physics. What a lot of people are doing, and trainers are walking people into this, is like they're trying to do physics and they can't add. Like you don't even we don't even understand the dog as a species. We don't know how to use a leash appropriately in a way that the dog understands. But here we are out in the park trying to be off-leash, and you're wondering why it's not working, right? You can't add, you know. So so what I do in that program, and I am really grateful I went through another program to create it. So I just basically use their structure and plus my knowledge and my coaching and everything in it. So basically, I take that we go kind of from like the macro, like understanding the big picture of like this species and how they operate, right? Like understanding the macro to kind of the micro, and we also kind of work from like I said, like kindergarten to college, so we learn from the ground up. So by the time you get to physics or whatever up here, like we know how we got there, right? So we can rep it a thousand times. We're not can it we're not confused about where we are, what we need to do. So, like my program just really, I mean, it's uh it has been run as in a 90-day, like in an in 90-day intervals, but starting in May, I'm gonna open up to kind of rolling admission. So basically, you know, you go through and you stalk psychology kindergarten to college, you get a this core curriculum, you're in a community of like-minded people, it's phenomenal, it's so cool. Like the people that come because there's people all over the world.

SPEAKER_04 18:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Are so cool.

SPEAKER_04 18:21

We've got people literally all over the world, like and people the world needs you, you need to like franchise it.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

I want to do international stuff, that's for sure. But you know, people with parallel, I mean, parallel values, and the cool thing is across the world, dogs all speak the same language and they need the same thing. Like the people that come into the program, like if they come into the program and they do the work, I actually guarantee your success. I also don't know another trainer that guarantees success like I do. I'm like, if you do the work, if you do all of the work with me and you do all of the things, I guarantee I'm not guaranteeing you a perfect dog because your dog is the dog, right? You know, but I'm guaranteeing you that you will not be confused and that you will understand every single thing that's going on and that you will know what to do.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

So it's and forever and forever, forever. Because it because you don't once you learn the language of the dogs and you know how to lead, you don't need to, you don't need anyone to come do it for you.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

It's also the we call it in Buddhism human revolution of the person, too, to really have to face their things and I'm sure you see a lot of that and breakdowns, or you know, because in order to help the animal, you have to you have to face yourself, you know, you have to face yourself, and that's another amazing.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

I'm just so grateful that of just how things have gone because of the kind of person that I attract, and the you know, it's not just anyone can sign up for the program because I also have like I really care about I care about like the you know, I care about people's success. I care about my you know the success trait. So the pack leader blueprint is not a program you can just pay online for and show up because I have to know that you're gonna do the work, you know. So it attracts people that are some, you know, people don't always realize how much they're gonna have to look at themselves, but they do, and it's profound. People I know that people have gotten it when they're like, every area of my life has changed, everything's changed, and I'm like, good job.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

Winning, you're winning, you're creating victory, you did it.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

You're creating victory, you're leading, yeah.

Communicating Without Talking

SPEAKER_04 20:49

I love, and again, these things help me because I have to stop and look at every dog in the street, and I just want to scoop them all up when I see these things. But you know, you talk about staying calm, not reacting, and I've seen you do this, and the things that you share about they're gonna match your energy. So even in situations where they're amped up, you're not you're never harsh, but you're specific and the using your body thing and stepping in, and then you know, you see the animal step back.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

And so, what are some of these techniques that you've learned that you know help it becomes instinctual when you actually understand them, you know, like so. So, what you just asked is like, so what are some of the techniques? And like you have to understand body language and energy, and think about like when you walk down the street, when humans walk down the street, there are people that like walk down the street and like have people move. If you see Oprah coming down the street, people are moving, you know, like even though they're like looking, they're they're moving, and because space means respect, you know. So basically, like you need to understand that dogs communicate primarily with body language and energy, they move each other. That's how they communicate is body language and energy. They're always talking to each other, they're also always communicating with us. So you basically have to learn how to communicate like a dog. And I always tell my students, I'm like, stop talking.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Like I'm guilty, stop it. Like they know what you're saying. Stop.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

I'm like, the more you talk, the less they listen. Because the reality is we are always talking to them. But we're always talking to them, but like through our body language and our energy. But then when you add sound, when you add the it's noise, and they're just like they're trying to read you and understand you, but then you start yapping, and then they're like, I can't, they can't hear you, they can't understand you anymore because you added this right on top of you added sound that they don't understand, and a weird energy because you start talking at them. So I teach people how to communicate with body language and energy, and like you do not need to open your mouth. And what I think one thing you said was like something about being like firm but not harsh. Did you say that? Yeah, so so we have to be clear, you know. You have to, and non-human animals they don't correct each other emotionally. People hate that word correction. The point of a correction is to connect. You know, the point of correction when you stop a behavior is so I can connect with you to bring you back in with me. That's amazing. And it's for you, you know. So you think about like, and I don't want to get into politics of how people feel about police, but like someone speeds their car, you get a speeding ticket that is just a correction because what you're doing is dangerous. And if the cop came up and wrote you a really big speeding ticket with no emotion, no nothing, there you go. And you're like, oh, sorry, you know, like you know, that you take it and you go. But if the cop came up and was like screaming at you and taking out their bad day on you, and that's even your own species, but you'd be like, F you, you know, so like we have to basically learn to embody an energy that can say no, that they respect and they trust, and we give them everything that's good, but we can also say no. All right, but when we say no, we're fair and it makes sense and we move right through it, we don't carry it forward.

Breed Labels And Real Causes

SPEAKER_04 24:47

This is I'm gonna have to really it's cool stuff. I know I wanna seriously. I just I love the animals so much. Yeah, anything in closing you can share with our friends that might be struggling. Where can we find you? And how do we get in touch? Follow him. What's your Instagram?

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yeah, so so you can follow I have so I have two, but you should follow Pack Leader University. My other one is Ridge Dog Behavior, but they're basically the same account. I'm leaning, I'm really leaning more into Pack Leader because that's the mission and the goal and everything. So you can find you know on Instagram is Pack Leader University. I have a website, also packleaderuniversity.com. And how I really work with people on a deep level, right? Right now, my primary offering is that it's the in-depth course because I have a philosophy like I don't want to spit on your house fire. I also don't want to be part of anyone's failure narrative of like it didn't work. I'm like, I know it works, you know, like when you understand everything, it works. So I'm really committed to people really understanding everything. So the way, and I am coming beginning to have different offerings, but my primary offering is the Pack Leader Blueprint program. We're in a round right now, and then like I said, in in the end of May, we're gonna start opening it up to like a rolling admissions rather than three times a year. And it's that's where you come to to like learn everything you need to know about like the dog, whatever dog problem you're having. And I've had people go through multiple board and trains, many trainers, like it's like I've never had a student show up and do the work and not succeed.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

Yeah, share some of the challenges that you've been presented with and what were the outcomes, like the bigger ones.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Oh, I mean, I mean we've been presenting. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like I mean, just I've never uh wildly we've got some seriously aggressive ones in this in this round, which someone you know, on the console call. He's like on the console call, and he turns around his phone and the crab the dog is like just growling at him for like existing in his own space. And the guy was had been bit multiple times. I mean, we have the whole spectrum of behaviors, right? Some from like extreme fear to like extreme aggression, it all requires the same fundamental understanding and leadership. And some people have a smaller margin of error, but you know, there's never been a dog that's come through, never been a dog or a human that has come through that has done the work that has not been successful. It's really cool, yeah. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_04 27:41

You guys, seriously, it's like my outside of pit bulls and addicts, my favorite account. And and I meant to ask you earlier, you know, there's certain breeds that are deemed aggressive or dangerous, and I have not really found that to, I mean, personally, so what do you think about these different types and why are they given these labels? And does it it seems to all apply to what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 28:15

So the breed is essentially like the suit that the dog wears, right? So, like, think about like if you saw somebody standing down on Wall Street in a suit, you might make some assumptions about them, but you don't really know who that is, right? So, like the breed can tell you something about how that dog might be, but to me, it's uh at the end of the day, it's like the what I look at dogs in terms of their pack positions, like their front, middle, back, you know, I look at them, you know, as energies. The breed is just you know the suit that the dog wears, and it can tell you like, okay, well, that, you know, like if it's a a border collie, it's gonna have the tendency to, you know, it's gonna really want to work and it's gonna have the tendency to herd. So like there are some traits and characteristics that go with breeds that are accurate, right? But I my big thing is like breed is never an excuse for a bad behavior. Like some people will be like, oh, well, it's you know, it's a German shepherd, so it's maldi, so it bites. And I'm like, No, absolutely not, you know, like, but in terms of like so the breed can tell you something about what the dog might be like in their personality, but it's never like it's never an excuse for bad behavior. And then in terms of like the negative stereotypes about like with breeds, like pit bulls and whatnot, you know, the way I look at that is like the breed is a pit bull or a rottweiler or anything, all it is is a powerful breed, it is strong, they're physically strong, and you look at it. It's a powerful, it's it's a powerful breed, they're not inherently aggressive, they have just been used by they are extremely powerful, they are kind of inherently powerful, and when you get the wrong person in the driver's, I mean the dog is kind of in the driver's seat-ish, but like when you get the wrong person, you know, driving the dog, basically, that's when that the power can be used for bad things, yeah. And then people think it's the breed, but but what it ultimately is that is an inherently powerful breed. Dogs are animals, they're predators, but the chihuahua that bites or the yorky that goes and nips doesn't get reported like the pit bull that did it, but it was the same motivation, the predator, you know, like but a much different outcome, feeling unsafe or yeah, so much to learn.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

You're truly transforming the world. Anything in closing you can share with our friends, other than I can't tell you guys enough to stay in touch with him because you're like please, yeah.

Where To Follow And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 31:10

No, I I I just I want everyone to understand that like I didn't grow up knowing this stuff, I learned all of this stuff, and my students they don't know any of this stuff when they come in, but they we like you can learn it. So, like, and is so everyone that is interested and willing and able to be a student and willing to be introspective can become really good with dogs, and it doesn't matter how many trainers you've seen, or you know what you can't write your dog off unless you really understand you can't. I mean, you can't write your dog off, period. But like, unless you understand dog psychology, like at the level I do, like you can't write dogs off. I believe every dog is helpable and every human is capable. And this can also be like a vehicle for like tremendous like personal transformation, like it was for me. Like, I mean, without dogs, I would be you know, dead or under a bridge. Like it would just not be working out so well.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

This is your mission for sure. Talk about turning. It really is. So trauma into triumph.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Holy moly, that can really provide tremendous purpose, and also dogs are a mirror, right? So they're a mirror to like, how are you doing? So, I mean, they and they can really a lot of times, especially when people are struggling, they can't do something for themselves, but they'll do it for the dog. So it's like, cool. If you need to do it for your dog right now, fine, cool, and let's do that and let's help you too.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Amazing, so inspiring. Thank you. You are creating victory, you are making it happen. Someday I'm gonna have a farm and you're gonna be in charge. So please, all right. I'm in guys for sharing, downloading, and follow Ridge, and we will see you back next week at creating victory and go out and have the best day ever. Bye, guys. Thank you, thank you.